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In Part 1 of this Myth Busting series on Original Sin we looked at the Scriptures that contradict the doctrine. In Part 2 we looked at Scriptures purported to support the doctrine - and why they don't. Today we'll discuss some objections/questions raised by others and some summary thoughts.
On Exodus 20:
In the comment section of Part 1, Jess (also known as Wade) asked about Exodus 20:5 in light of Ezekiel 18.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:5-6 ESV)
Well, we know from Ezekiel 18 that God is not speaking of visiting spiritual death on people for the sins of their fathers, because He denies that outright. So, what is He talking about? First, notice of whom He is speaking about punishing: generations of those who hate Him. I have a relative whose father is an atheist. This father hates God. Sadly, his children will likely hate God...and their children... In fact, as near as I can tell, the father's father hates God. Sadly...these fathers, through teaching their children to hate God, bring about God's punishment not only on themselves, but on their offspring who follow in their footsteps. Notice the rest of the passage: but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love m and keep my commandments." If any of this man's family turns from hating God and keeps His commandments, God will show His steadfast love to that one. This is not about punishing the children for Adam's sins - this is about the nature of hating God or loving God - our children will, more than likely, follow in our footsteps.
On the "Obvious" Sinfulness of Children:
I received comments on both Part 1 and Part 2 and I responded to those there. I encourage you to look at those comments if you missed them. Additionally, I had a couple of private e-mails about the topic. One friend brought up that children are obviously sinful ("spiritually dead" is how this idea is described in the doctrine of Original Sin) as they throw temper tantrums, are selfish, etc... My response to this is idea is multi-faceted:
1. Christians - people in Christ - throw temper tantrums, lie, are selfish, etc.. This does not mean they are spiritually dead.
2. There is a time when sin is not imputed: "when there is no law." We are not responsible for God's law when it does not exist, or we are incapable of knowing it. Scripture says that there is a time in every person's life when they do not know enough to refuse evil and choose good.
And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
(Deuteronomy 1:39 ESV)
The children of Israel, those who had no knowledge of good or evil, were not held responsible for the choices the congregation of Israel made. Even Jesus was once in this condition:
He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.
(Isaiah 7:15-16 ESV)
Sin is not imputed when there is no knowledge of good or evil - and children have no such knowledge.
3. Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is comprised of those like children - which, of course, would be impossible if children were spiritually dead and sinful.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
(Matthew 18:1-6 ESV)
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” And he laid his hands on them and went away.
(Matthew 19:13-15 ESV)
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
(Mark 10:13-16 ESV)
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
(Luke 18:15-17 ESV)
Could Jesus have been any more clear on the nature of these children? The kingdom of heaven belongs to children! (I believe it is sometimes argued that Jesus was only speaking of the humility of children - but that is only mentioned once (separate from the occasion that 3 of the gospels record) and He says this humility is what makes a person great in the kingdom of heaven - not that that is why they go to heaven.)
Jesus said, " Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." If the doctrine of Original Sin were true, a sinful (depraved, even?) child could not "receive the kingdom of God" at all. Obviously, Jesus is teaching that children can and do receive the kingdom of God - it is, after all, comprised of people just like children!
What was taught before Original Sin:
As noted in Part 1, Jews have no such teaching about original sin. It would seem, were this a doctrine originating at the beginning of human history, the Jews would also teach and believe this. (Perhaps they did prior to the writing of Ezekiel 18 - it would appear that someone was.) Not only that, but "early church fathers" did not teach it either - in fact, they opposed the idea:
Justin Martyr (AD 100-165):
"Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way."
"'Unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever."
"For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.”
“I have proven in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.”
“The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Each one had committed personal transgression.”
Tertullian (160-225 AD):
" “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance."
Tertullian also argued that no reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice. (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61.)
Origen (185-254):
“How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to offer Him?”
“The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to vice punishment.”
Tatian (120-180 AD):
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.”
Melito (died ~180 AD):
"There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.”
Ireneaus (2nd Century):
“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.”
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD):
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice."
“To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.”
“Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.”
Summary:
1. Scriptures used to "prove" the Doctrine of Original Sin do not teach it but, rather, one must either infer necessary information (i.e. Romans 5:12) or figurative language must be read as literal (i.e. Psalms 51:5)
2. There are Scriptures that clearly contradict the Doctrine of Original Sin (i.e. Ezekiel 18, Hebrews 2:17, Romans 7:9).
3. This doctrine was not held by the Jews (including Jesus), nor was it taught by the apostles or the earliest "church fathers." In fact, many of the latter denounced it plainly.
Now, I know you have some thoughts! Don't be stingy - share them in the comment section!
Thank you for joining me on this journey. In a couple of weeks we'll take on another topic - and please feel free to recommend one!
Tomorrow: back to our regular programming!
{Parts 1 and 2 - and other Myth Busting topics - can be found here.}


AH! I wish I was not in the weeds. I would love to have this discussion with you. I think it's important to remember that while children have no knowledge of the law and cannot be held accountable for it, if there was no sin and they were not guilty, there would be no need to say they will not be held accountable. You see what I'm saying? There has to be sin in them in the first place if they are to be excused from the accountability.
ReplyDeleteThen excusing them from the accountability allows them into the kingdom of heaven, NOT their innocence. I think ultimately this discussion ends up at Calvinism or Armenian again. Not that we've done that before. LOL. Love you friend.
Hi Jess - and let me start by saying I love you too! I love your heart for God and your desire to search His Word!
DeleteSorry about your weeds - kind of. So much growth comes from pulling weeds!
Jess, if what you say is true (that sin lives in children) then please explain why Jesus said that we must become like children to enter Heaven.
Ah yes, growth. :) Why did Jesus say we must become like children? The verse tells us. Humble. We cannot accept a savior without first humbling ourselves. To read anything else into the verse, such as "becoming sinless like little children" would also necessitate becoming small like children. Or young like children. Or more energetic like children.
DeleteActually, dear friend, there are 5 places in the gospels (noted above in the post) where Jesus says to become like children. He only mentions "humility" once - and He specifies what the humility does: makes them the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. The other FOUR passages when Jesus says we must become like children to get into Heaven He says nothing of humility - only that we need to be like children. We needn't read anything into the passage - Jesus says it clearly: "the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these." You and I both know that the kingdom of Heaven cannot belong to depraved sinners - therefore, it is clear that children are not depraved sinners. Whatever their nature is (Heaven is not just for the small, the young or the energetic - those things have no bearing on Heaven) it is such that makes up Heaven!
DeleteI love that we can have these conversations. :) So at what point in life does a person, or child, become a sinner? Is it when they sin? Because my three year old sins with a knowledge that what he's doing is wrong. He tries to cover it up just like Adam and Eve did. Yet I'm sure when Jesus was talking about children, he wasn't just referring to one year olds.
DeleteIn other words, to say we have to become sinless like little children cannot be what the text means, for the simple reason that children DO sin, and they know they are doing so. Humility is mentioned as a reason once, but being sinless, not at all. I would submit you are reading that into the text. But I love you, so in a loving way. ;)
I love it too, Jess! Jesus didn't say "become sinless like little children." He said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God." My point is that if children were sinful, the kingdom of God would not belong to such as these. If children are depraved and tainted with Adam's sin, then Jesus would not have said that about them.
DeleteAs to the fact that your 3yo, like mine, transgresses YOUR law and wants to hide it (probably for fear of punishment), I think that goes back to what is also discussed in this post (Part 3): sin not being imputed when there is no law and the verses that say there is a time when children do not "know enough to refuse evil and choose good."
So, I am not saying that Jesus is saying children are sinless. I am asking why Jesus would say that the kingdom of Heaven belongs to depraved sinners. Would God say that the kindgom of Heaven belongs to mass murders? To rapists? To liars? No - it belongs to those who are not under condemnation for sin: for those not guilty in the eyes of God. We know that Christans are not under condemnation for sin - and Jesus appears to be saying the same of Children. We cannot qualify where Jesus did not. He said, "“Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” If He wanted to qualify that with "humility," or stature, or something like that, He would have. (It is in a completely different verse this one - in a completely different conversation - that Jesus references "humility" - and it is a conversation about who is "the greatest" in the kingdom of Heaven.) I would say that I am not reading anything into the text, but that you are adding qualifications to it that are not there. How about this: do we agree that Jesus said that the kingdom of God belongs to ones like children?
Yes! We do. :) Although I would say that's because He overlooks their sin because they cannot yet understands, not because they are sinless.
DeleteAnd if my three year old transgresses my law, he does God's also. God has told him to obey his mother and father. He also lies about it, which is breaking God's law.
What will a child do if left to their own devices? They will naturally sin. Why, when they do not yet have understanding, do they naturally sin AND try to lie and cover it up? They are doing what is instinctual.
In Matthew 5:10 Jesus also says that the kingdom of God belongs to those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. Are those sinless people? No. They are those whom God has forgiven (or covered by His grace) their sin. Jesus saying the kingdom of heaven belongs to them does not mean they are sinless. I should be sleeping. LOL.
Hi Jess!
DeleteI asked, "How about this: do we agree that Jesus said that the kingdom of God belongs to ones like children?"
You answered: "Yes! We do. :) Although I would say that's because He overlooks their sin because they cannot yet understands, not because they are sinless."
So, you are saying, "sin is not imputed when there is no law." Sin is not counted against people who are not old enough to "refuse evil and choose good"? That is what I have been saying. However, now there's a problem. Jesus, you, and I agree that the kingdom of God belongs to children. But you say they are dead in sin. How can the kingdom of God belong to those dead in sin?
Additionally, I think you are saying that their behavior is still sinful - so they are sinful. I would say that if God does not impute sin to a behavior then that behavior cannot be deemed by man to make a person sinful. That is, a litter of puppies will fight, hog the best bone, etc... I bet we agree that they are not sinning - they're being puppies. The same is true of young children - up to a point. If sin is not assigned (by God) to their behavior, it is childishness - not sinfulness.
You ask, "What will a child do if left to their own devices? They will naturally sin. Why, when they do not yet have understanding, do they naturally sin AND try to lie and cover it up? They are doing what is instinctual."
A. Isn't that what Adam and Eve did *before the fall*? Left to their own devices, they sinned - and they tried to cover it up...yet they were not "sinful" until the moment they sinned. We do not sin because we are sinners (Adam and Eve were not "sinners" when they first sinned). We are sinners once we sin.
B) Instinctual - like puppies! When we married, Clint had a dog named Gus. About 3 years ago, unbeknownst to me, Gus got into my pullets and killed 2 of them. When I went out later I had no idea why Gus was hiding from me. Why he slunk about and acted ashamed. I had never hit that dog - he had nothing physical to fear from me...he just knew he had done something wrong. I never even tried to instruct him to leave my birds alone - but he knew that he did something wrong. The dog was not a sinner. It is possible for a young child, likewise, to know that what they do is wrong without being accountable before God for it - as Scripture tells us. (Ie. Romans 5:13)
I think, at this point, we're saying the same thing: childish behavior (up to a point in time) is not imputed to children as sin because they don't "know enough to refuse evil and choose good." The question at hand is: are children born sinners - "spiritually dead" - for the sin of Adam?
Let's move on to your next point and see if it helps clarify: "In Matthew 5:10 Jesus also says that the kingdom of God belongs to those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. Are those sinless people? No. They are those whom God has forgiven (or covered by His grace) their sin. Jesus saying the kingdom of heaven belongs to them does not mean they are sinless."
Their sin has been washed away, right? Jesus specified a very specific type of people: righteous people who are persecuted for their righteousness. I bet we can agree that all righteous people (since Jesus said it - we're going to assume we're talking about people righteous in Jesus' eyes) belong to the kingdom of God. We can make the assumption that these people enter the kingdom of God because they are right before God. Now...in the other passages Jesus specified a more general group of people: children. If we can assume that the former enters the kingdom of God because they are right before Him - we can assume the same of the latter. How can people "dead in sin" be right before God? They cannot.
I hope you got a very restful night's sleep!!
And this is JESS again, just so you wouldn't worry my husband was saying he loved you. ;)
ReplyDeleteLOL! I bet HE appreciates the clarification as well! :)
DeleteFarm girl, I am at a loss.
ReplyDeleteCan you for expedience sake state your premise again for why you do not believe all living when born from Cain onward do not have within their genes the inherited reality of a sin nature gained from the first father, Adam?
I am prepared to focus on one verse from Ezekiel 18 that seems to me undermines the proposition that Ezekiel upholds your premise whatever it is?
Do you believe some where born sinless or all were born sinful?
Look forward to proceeding further into this debate.
Hi Michael,
DeleteI believe this post summarizes it all: there is a) no evidence that any one is born with the guilt of sin, b) God states, outright, that we do not die spiritually for the sin of others, c) Scripture states that we are alive until we sin, and d) this was commonly believed (that there was no such thing as "original sin" that imputes guilt to mankind) until about the 4th century AD.
I am happy to look at any one verse - but, of course, it must be viewed in light of the chapter.
I believe that all were born in the same spiritual condition that Adam and Eve were created.
Also, I forgot to ask and apologize now if it is clear in your blog somewhere stating your religious affiliation? From what faith and morals do you herald from? Are you Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic, Jehovah Witness, Mormom, Deist???? Were you raised in a Christian home or an athiest's or of some orthodox religion as in Eastern Orthodox?
ReplyDeleteAh....you will not like my answer: I am a simple, Bible believing Christian. To date, no denomination has romanced me enough to tack their name onto my love for Christ.
DeleteI was raised in a home that believed that Jesus was the Son of God. We attended a number of denominations here and there throughout my childhood. My first actual religous affliation was when I "joined" a Southern Baptist church as a teen. Later, in my early 20s, a wonderful preacher of a non-denominational congregation "taught [me] the way more accurately" and helped God to instill in me a passion for the Word of God - and a love to divide it rightly, no matter what men teach. Later, unable to find a congregation more like that one, I worshiped in Churches of Christ. It is that group that I believe holds most closely to the Word of God when it comes to the gospel and the nature of God. I will not say they are not flawed - but no group comprised of mere humans will be.
My allegiance is to God and His Word. I tell you, honestly, if you can teach a different belief than one I adhere to using God's Word without man's embellishments and extrapolations, I am happy to embrace it. I only want to know Jesus, and Him crucified. Nothing more - and certainly nothing less!
Michael, thank you for taking the time to read and wrestle with God's Word with me!
So, as the astronauts said on their return flight to earth, "Houston we have a problem"!
ReplyDeleteNot to worry though, cause there is no problem God cannot face and fix!
With God all things are possible.
I like the way this sentence is constructed: "a) no evidence that any one is born with the guilt of sin,".
That is far different than being born with Adam's inherent fallen nature as I pointed out to you by that verse from Genesis three that Eve was the mother of all living.
Thanks for being clear as to your present faith and morals standing.
Not sure why you believe that original sin is a myth?
Why do you come to that conclusion? Was that from some natural inclination or by study or by pedagogy?
So, let's start with some standard verses that in my judgment establish original sin because Eve is the mother of all living and because she fell first then Adam with that combination none of us is born sinless. There are some that Scripture do seem to indicate were without guilt but I can see nowhere in Scripture from Genesis 3 to the words "the end" at the last chapter of Revelation?
What do you make of this that Solomon prayed to God?
1Ki 8:46 "If they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near,
Or Paul writing to a "Gentile" Church, the Romans, when he dictates this to Tertius to write to them:
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Now for Ezekiel 18, you have to not only consider that whole chapter you have to consider all the previous 17 chapters combined, nevertheless, what do you make of this verse and the word "all" in it?
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Keep in mind Ezekiel was a prophet to the House of Israel and Judah and at that time there was no other nation on earth "living" by the Faith of Abraham. Of course we do have Biblical warrant that other nationalities walked with the same kind of Faith as Abraham, like his trusted servant he sent to find a wife for Isaac. He wasn't a natural born Jew, far from it but he certainly was walking in the Faith Abraham was walking in.
Anyway, that's my first volley back at you hoping the plain meaning of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to your error about original sin being just a myth and not a reality for all living, our first mother being Eve.
Oh, and before I go I will digress to this verse by Paul knowing your stated love for God and His Word because these two, God and the Word of His Grace are the very things that build us up and give us an inheritance among the sanctified:
Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Hi Michael,
DeleteI see your comment and I'm going to look it over and respond - but I think part of the problem is the distinction between Catholic-brand "Original Sin" (the idea of inheriting a nature prone to sin) and Reformed-brand "Original Sin" (the idea that we are all born guilty and spiritually dead because of Adam's sin). In the first post I clarified that I was addressing the Reformed brand of the doctrine of Original Sin. Don't know if that helps or not.
You and I would likely agree that man is prone to sin - but that is **no different** than Adam and Eve (obviously, they sinned without any special "inherited nature"). What we would not agree on (and, I apologize if this is not what you're actually arguing) is that our nature, at birth, is any different than Adam's or Eve's at their creation - or Jesus' at His birth.
Are you of the opinion that the nature we have at birth is such that it renders us spiritually dead - without ability to respond to God until He intervenes on our behalf and regenerates us? More accurately: what is your view of the consequences of Adam's sin on the ability of a person to obey God?
I think the only other question outstanding (other than my reviewing the Scriptures you note) is how I came about my stand. I figured that was pretty clear in my posts: Scripture. I don't remember ever having been taught this (and, as I said, I first attended a Baptist church - which teaches the Reformed brand of "Original Sin"), but Scripture just did not support the idea of such a doctrine. I have certainly asked people (on both sides of the issue) how they understood various Scriptures as I worked through my "own salvation with fear and trembling" - but I believe what I believe because it looks to me like Scripture teaches it.
I'll go look at the Scriptures you've provided (though, between chores, dinner, bedtime and sleep I might not have a chance to respond until tomorrow). In the meantime, I'd love to learn more about you, your religious background, and how you came to faith in Christ.
Thank you, again, for another interesting comment!
Hi Michael,
DeleteA quick glance at the Scriptures you provided caused me to realize that this should be pretty quick (though I am not convinced you will find it persuasive).
The Scriptures from 1 Kings and Romans only say that all people sin. I do not deny that. We do sin - once we are capable of sinning. We are not born with sin...nor are we any different from Adam and Eve - who also chose to sin. (I addressed Romans 3:10 on Day 2 when I pointed out that it was from Psalms 14 - and not literal...as Scripture tells us of righteous men and women.)
I am afraid I do not understand your point with the verse from Ezekiel. What God is saying in that verse is that He judges us according our our ways (not Adam's ways) and that we are capable of - and expected to - turn away from sin when we commit it. If what you are saying is that we are born crooked, well numerous Scriptures say otherwise (see Part 2 of the series).
Thank you for the verse from Acts!
Again, I am not certain, but it appears to me that your belief is that we are born corrupted because of Adam's sin. If that were true, Jesus must have been born the same way also (Hebrews 2:17). Finally, you referenced Genesis 3:20 - with the idea that, because they are the first parents, we are tainted with their sin. If that were the case (and Scripture nowhere says that), then wouldn't their grandchildren be, then, further corrupted with the sins of not only Adam and Eve, but also the grandchildren's own parents? Then, the next generation would be tainted with the sins of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents..and so on and so forth. If that were the case, imagine how utterly corrupted you and I would be today.
Have a wonderful evening!
good morning farm girl
ReplyDeletedone with your chores?
cows milked?
pigs, well,
dogs and cats and children worked over and fed?
Let's continue. I'm going to have to break this one up into parts because of length and the 4,096 character rule!
I am not surprised with your understandings.
But I have to say you are putting into verses of Scripture things that simply are not there. We call that being anachronistic. The chief culprit is the devil himself when he came to Eve, Genesis 3 and then to Jesus, Matthew 4 and Luke 4. Really this quality and trait we all do when we want what we want people to understand what we want! :)
Everyone, young and old from the "moment" of conception and not a moment before is a sinner at birth that is why they sin. You do not become a sinner "because" you sin. No, no, you sin because you are a sinner.
Back to the foundation which bears repeating, Genesis 3:20, Eve is the mother of all living.
I want to look at some verses that I hope will enlighten you as to "our" nature born into this world so that those God has chosen will be born again from it.
First consider these Words of this Psalm as they underscore what I meant from the Words of the prayer of King Solomon I posted in my last post above: 1Ki 8:46 "If they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--..."
Psa 143:1 A Psalm of David. Hear my prayer, O LORD; give ear to my pleas for mercy! In your faithfulness answer me, in your righteousness!
Psa 143:2 Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
So, let's connect the dots here with Genesis 3:20 and 143:2 "for no one, no one, no one (emphasis added) living is righteous before you.
Ok, so we now have another conflict when we calibrate that no one living is righteous before God because everyone living comes from the loins of Adam and the seed of Eve bearing their fallen nature.
Your position is you are sinless until you are overwhelmed and sin.
My position is you sin after you are overwhelmed because you are a natural born sinner.
The question you need to ask is this one. If "perfect" sinless Adam and Eve couldn't withstand the onslaught of evil darkness of spiritual wickedness that came from the snake why do we, now sinful beings because of their fallen nature, think we can overcome what they could not being sinless; or that we can understand all this mystery looking in hindsight at everything historically as we go to our appointed deaths?
Now, let's look at this idea of passing the sin nature onto the next generations.
Look at and consider what the Apostle is saying here, which comes to your point about generational degradation and why we don't see the human being in a worse or weaker or more wicked condition than previous generations?
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
I don't suppose you dispute you and every one of your darling children are on the same countdown timeline the rest of us souls are on and one day they as we too will breathe a final breath in this flesh and body and go the way of all flesh?
All die. That's the consequence of Adam's error. If you partake you die.
Now I want to take a look at this passing on the sin nature from Adam through Eve to all living with some Scriptures that may not at first make any sense. That's ok. Just go with me now and ponder what is being revealed by this phenomenon?
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ReplyDeleteFirst let's look at the phenomenon of in the womb in the womb in the womb verses:
Psa 78:1 A Maskil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my teaching; incline your ears to the words of my mouth!
Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old,
Psa 78:3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us.
Psa 78:4 We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders that he has done.
Psa 78:5 He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children,
Psa 78:6 that the next generation might know them, the children yet unborn, and arise and tell them to their children,
Psa 78:7 so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments;
Psa 78:8 and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation whose heart was not steadfast, whose spirit was not faithful to God.
Now I know you can count. Count how many wombs within wombs are in those verses?
Next let's look at something about Abraham and what "he" did that the Bible teaches his posterity is credited with after his doing it even though the one it is accredited to wasn't born for hundreds of years later:
Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
Heb 7:2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.
Heb 7:3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
Heb 7:4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!
Heb 7:5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.
Heb 7:6 But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
Heb 7:7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.
Heb 7:8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Heb 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
How can that be that Levi paid tithes to King Melchizedek, Priest of God Most High when he wasn't even born for several hundred years hence?
Here we see the writer to the Hebrews making the connection between the actions of a father in a generation many years before attributing that "value" to a generation many years later.
In Adam through Eve, the mother of all living, death is experienced by all because all have sinned because we are born sinners and therefore we sin and sin always results in death.
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ReplyDeleteOne more example of this kind of attribution. This one is a question Jesus asks:
Mat 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,
Mat 22:42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him, "The son of David."
Mat 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet'?
Mat 22:45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
Now I want to finish off with this "guilt" thing I noted I liked in my last post about your number one point above.
How is it that the Apostle Paul can say all the things he does about us being sinners and that because all living beings have sinned we will all die and suffer death when he says this about himself?
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--
Php 3:4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
Php 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
And this record about these folks, dear ones indeed to God:
Luk 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
If he was sinless and righteous and devout why wait for the consolation of Israel. The consolation of Israel is God's promise to send them a Messiah like King David as we see foretold to him by the Prophet Nathan. See 2nd Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17.
and
Luk 2:36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,
Luk 2:37 and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
Luk 2:38 And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.
Sinless and right with God yet spent her whole life in fastings and prayers and worship "waiting' for the redemption of Jerusalem?
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ReplyDeleteAnd then this unusual Word from God to Ezekiel:
Eze 14:13 "Son of man, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it and break its supply of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it man and beast,
Eze 14:14 even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 14:15 "If I cause wild beasts to pass through the land, and they ravage it, and it be made desolate, so that no one may pass through because of the beasts,
Eze 14:16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither sons nor daughters. They alone would be delivered, but the land would be desolate.
Eze 14:17 "Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, Let a sword pass through the land, and I cut off from it man and beast,
Eze 14:18 though these three men were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be delivered.
Eze 14:19 "Or if I send a pestilence into that land and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off from it man and beast,
Eze 14:20 even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither son nor daughter. They would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness.
History proves in 70 a.d. Jerusalem was raised and utterly destroyed and that after the Resurrection of the Christ to that people!
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ReplyDeleteSo what does the Scripture or rather God through the Scripture teach us about guilt, and being guilty?
Well, is God nuts? How is it the Apostle can claim he is guiltless and blameless according to the "Law of Righteousness" and write from a revelation that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God? Well you won't like my answer but I'll answer anyway, "because we are all born from the womb of Eve and have the original sin nature from conception in our mommy's tummy". As you read there above what this means is we are first and foremost sinners that's why we sin. We either sin overtly or both subvertly and overtly or just subvertly as Paul, Simeon and Annas.
The examples above from the Apostle Paul and Simeon and Annas establishes that though these few were sinless in the sense of being blameless when it comes to the practice of the Law of Righteousness, they each understood because of this very Law of Righteousness at work in them they were indeed sinners in need of and looking for the Redemption of Jerusalem and Israel as all those chosen by God are.
Then there is Ezekiel 14. God is saying that Noah, Job and Daniel were three righteous men who attained to the Righteousness by Faith, a Righteousness so wonderful in His eyes He would say what He did to Ezekiel what He said to him regarding the sinfulness and depravity of His people, the children of Israel.
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ReplyDeleteWhat you are doing by isolating Ezekiel 18 inappropriately and just focusing on it while disregarding how we got there by setting aside Ezekiel chapters 1 through 17. You have to gain the totality of the Words of the Prophet Ezekiel from those prior chapters to arrive at the understanding of the total depravity these people were living in as is described in chapter 18:30.
Are you familiar with the Rabbinical Talmud and why it was written?
The Talmud was the Jewish "man's" version of the "Torah", God's version to man.
What was happening there is men were being cop outs similar to husbands who cop out of honeydo lists! Honey do this, honey do that or else no rolls in bed with honey in the morning! :)
Fathers were trying to cop out of their responsibilities for their own sinful actions and come up with a "legal" way to pass that responsibility onto coming generations and God was putting His foot down on it and gave those Words to Ezekiel to deal with it. What you are doing with that Chapter is putting an opinion that fits your understanding and belief into it which is what we call being anachronistic. We all do that naturally just like our federal head Adam.
Remember this conversation he had with God in the Garden? Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." We call it passing the buck onto someone else.
Chapter 18 of Ezekiel is a form of that.
One last thing to go with that is this. Remember this conversation?
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all.
Joh 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish."
Where do you suppose Caiaphas got that from?
I submit, here:
Num 16:20 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 16:21 "Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment."
Num 16:22 And they fell on their faces and said, "O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?"
Where do you suppose Moses got that idea from?
I submit from Abraham, here:
Gen 18:17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."
Gen 18:22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 Then Abraham drew near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
Gen 18:24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it?
Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
So, I suppose I have filled your cup up to overflowing with this Bible study and pricked your soul with my position about original sin?
final Next
ReplyDeleteI realize it is different than yours.
When you are ready I would open up some more things for you to consider about our four part being, flesh, body, soul and spirit and about life, life, life and Eternal Life. That study will go into the Greek language and we will look at some things about our constitution as a created being and then how that being is affected in life, life, life and ultimately once we die or the Lord returns we enter into our Eternal Home Life because we, too, have been born again to Eternal Life never to die again but live in God's Presence enjoying His Full Majesty and Glory there after!
Did you hear the one about the rich man who was visited by an Angel informing him he had two weeks left to live on earth and then he was going to be called home to the Kingdom in Heaven?
The Angel appeared to this man, very very wealthy, kind of wealthy like Abram:
Gen 13:1 So Abram went up from Egypt, he and his wife and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the Negeb.
Gen 13:2 Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 13:3 And he journeyed on from the Negeb as far as Bethel to the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Ai,
Gen 13:4 to the place where he had made an altar at the first. And there Abram called upon the name of the LORD.
Or King Solomon:
2Ch 1:11 God answered Solomon, "Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked possessions, wealth, honor, or the life of those who hate you, and have not even asked long life, but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself that you may govern my people over whom I have made you king,
2Ch 1:12 wisdom and knowledge are granted to you. I will also give you riches, possessions, and honor, such as none of the kings had who were before you, and none after you shall have the like."
2Ch 1:13 So Solomon came from the high place at Gibeon, from before the tent of meeting, to Jerusalem. And he reigned over Israel.
2Ch 1:14 Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.
2Ch 1:15 And the king made silver and gold as common in Jerusalem as stone, and he made cedar as plentiful as the sycamore of the Shephelah.
The Angel of the Lord told him to get his house in order because it was now time for him to go the way of all flesh.
The man thought about it a moment and appealed to the Angel that he be allowed to bring one possession with him when he died.
The Angel talked it over with the Lord and then replied, ok, just one thing.
The man gathered up all his gold and put it in a very large wooden and metal strong box, a very very large one because this man had billions and billions of dollars worth of Gold in his possession.
When he died he and his big box were carried by Angels to the entrance to the gates of Glory and Saint Peter was there receiving him. He looked at the man and the box and asked what is it God permitted him to bring along with him knowing the Lord consented to these requests from time to time? The man said oh I brought along my gold. Saint Peter started laughing and the man looked a bit stunned at this and asked him why he was laughing? Peter said, oh dear friend has noone told you that all the streets of this city are paved with pure gold; then turning to road and construction worker Angels Peter called out to them to come and pick up the man's gold and make for him a nice porch in front of his Kingdom abode!
Hi Michael,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that I do not have time to rebut each of the many Scriptures that you cite. However, I think you will find each addressed in the three posts on this topic. The bottom line: God says that we die for our own, individual sins - not the sins of Adam. The Scriptures you note support that thought, not refute it.
Here we do agree. You wrote: "All die. That's the consequence of Adam's error. If you partake you die."
Yes. - when we "partake" of sin, we die. Until we partake of sin, we are alive. (Like Paul - Romans 7:9.)
Many of the Scriptures you reference talk about physical consequences (even death) that we suffer for the sins of others. I do not deny that - and Scripture supports it, but that has no bearing on the spiritual consequences of our sin - clearly stated in Ezekiel 18: we die, spiritually, for our own sins...not the sins of others. If I rob a store, my whole family suffers the consequences for my sin, but they do not spiritually die for my sin any more than they do so because of Adam's sin.
Your presentation of Ezekiel 18 was interesting, but it wasn't an obvious rendering of a plain passage. It wasn't about passing the buck. God says at the outset (and I paraphrase ): I am sick of you people saying that I punish children for the sins of their fathers - or that I punish fathers for the sins of their children. This is not true: The soul who sins will die. The soul who repents will live. I cannot see a way to read that otherwise that isn't honest with the text.
You talk about "no no no no no one" being righteous - but Scripture says otherwise. (See Post 2.) There are many example of God declaring men righteous. Enoch, Elijah - both so right before God that He took them to Heaven without experiencing death.
Anyway, we could dance this jig a whole lot more, but I doubt either of us would be moved. I stand by my conclusion (and Solomon's): "God made man upright and they have sought out many devices."
Thank you, again, for the pleasant exchange!
farm girl,
ReplyDeleteyou asked in an earlier post if I believe we are born spiritually dead.
Yes, I believe that.
Do you or do you believe your spirit is very much alive at birth?
Yes, Michael - I believe my spirit, your spirit, and everyone else's spirit was alive at birth.
ReplyDeleteSo thought Paul: Romans 7:9
So thought Solomon: Ecclesiastes 7:29
So thought Isaiah: Isaiah 53:6
So thought David: 2 Samuel 12:23
So thought the Hebrew writer: Hebrews 2:17
Oy! I am not responding to your thread with Michael- except to say, that is what we are "up against".
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your first part of original sin and hope the next two might have something more to say about being "prone to sin" (although I am not sure that is a biblical phrase.) I agree that it happens at an indefinable time- another phrase that has emerged age of accountability- don't know when that is either- but I appreciate your trying to articulate so a huge "sacred cow" It is inextricably linked to the vast majority of Christian thought weather the believer knows it or not. I am in a Bible study right now going through a book called Systematic Theology.I thought I knew what I was getting into, and turned out to be right. The book should be called The Systematic Theology of Calvin. I also happen to be reading
What Love is This. Though I was excited at the table of contents, even this author has trouble "slam- dunking" some of this stuff. At a certain point we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and let God be the judge. Keep up your study and sharing.
You are SO right that much Christian teaching stems from the doctrine of Original Sin - which is a big reason I chose that first...it is the foundational teaching of much other unbiblical teaching.
ReplyDelete"At a certain point we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and let God be the judge." Amen!
Farm Girl,
ReplyDeletenot wanting to ring noses to draw blood or churn milk to make butter or burn the kernels while making flower, I would ask you to exegete or eisigete those verses that you claim support the refutation of original sin.
So thought Paul: Romans 7:9
So thought Solomon: Ecclesiastes 7:29
So thought Isaiah: Isaiah 53:6
So thought David: 2 Samuel 12:23
So thought the Hebrew writer: Hebrews 2:17
By the way, lest you think I got my understanding of Scripture studying the doctrines of men, I will share with you that for the first several years the only book I read was the Bible and lexicons that helped me understand the original languages, Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. What now is my belief about what the Bible teaches is after careful study for almost 40 years.
Any agreement there may be with great Bible scholars or great writings is coincidential and not deliberate.
I have reviews those verses you cite above and putting them into context with surrounding verses and chapters I am at a loss to understand how they refute original sin.
I am open to learn something from you here if you would just put forth what it is about each verse that brings you to believe that they do indeed refute the arguments I have already laid out using in some cases the same verses you use with differing results?
thanks and look forward to your response.
Hi Michael,
ReplyDeleteI am hesitant to even respond because it seems a) we're just doing a dance and b) I have addressed most of these passages in the series.
So, I will just briefly address the passages in question:
Romans 7:9 is pretty straightforward:"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." Paul was not born spiritually dead. He was born spiritually alive.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 "See, this alone I have found, that God made man upright, and they -- they have sought out many devices." Again - very obvious: God created man upright but THEY have sought out devices. Not that ADAM sought out devices, but each of us who has sinned.
Isaiah 53:6 "All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all." "All of us" have wandered and to have wandered from the fold of sheep means one was once in it - prior ot the wandering. EACH to his OWN way we have turned. This did not happen to us because of Adam's sin - but we have each chosen it.
2 Samuel 12:23 Speaking of his infant son David said, "and now, he hath died, why [is] this -- I fast? am I able to bring him back again? I am going unto him, and he doth not turn back unto me.'" How could David have confidence that his child was in Heaven: because children are not born dead in sin. (Anyone "dead in sin" will not be in Heaven.)
Hebrews 2:17 - 18 In speaking of how Jesus was made, with regard to temptations common to man, the Hebrew writer said, "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." It cannot be said that Jesus can understand our temptations and be made like us in all ways if He did not have the supposed main hinderance to our not falling to tempation.
You said, "I am open to learn something from you here if you would just put forth what it is about each verse that brings you to believe that they do indeed refute the arguments I have already laid out using in some cases the same verses you use with differing results?"
Michael, I looked through your comments here and do not find you referencing ANY of these 5 passages at any time. So, I would like for you to take each of these 5 verses and tell me how they support the idea of Original Sin.
Thank you!
Farm Girl,
ReplyDeleteI would be happy to lay our what I believe each of these verses mean from my interpretation.
I want to lay out a presupposition for why I will come to those interpretations first.
As I alluded in my earliest post I was going to do this but because of your subsequent response I got derailed but now that you have invited me to respond I will knowing it may be futile except for the fact that I believe the Spirit of the Lord taught me what I am about to lay out and it did not come from reading books other than the Bible and lexicons to help me understand the original texts and the original words from Greek, Hebrew and Aramiac.
I will most likely break this up because of length.
I would start with this premise asking the simple question what died as God said if or when you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die.
As we both know and anyone with an inkling of intelligence will conclude there has to be something that died because God cannot lie.
We also see at the end of chapter three of Genesis the Angel keep guard of the Tree of Life so that Adam and Eve or their children could not partake of any of that fruit and live forever!
Hmmmmm? What does that tell us? Well it says to me if there was some way Adam or Eve or their children could get to that Tree of Life and eat some of its fruit they could forever after and from that time on for eternity in some condition and relationship to God and Elect Angels and the Devil and fallen angels?
You may know this and if this next bit is redundant to you I apologize.
ReplyDeleteWe are four part beings. Adam and Eve were all four parts functioning perfectly and because God is a Spirit and to worship God is to worship Him in Spirit and Truth they did just that worshipped God with their spirit.
I propose to say that when Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil Adam could have stepped to the plate and made atonement for her as the Federal head and then there would have been a different story told by Moses. He did not and so besides Eve's spirit dying at that time so did Adam's leaving three of their four part beings functioning well enough to start having children, Cain and Abel being the first of them born with dead spirits but not dead souls, bodies or flesh. They too kept procreating and man began populating the whole earth as we see throughout Genesis.
But as we know by the doctrine of Election, the Children of God were predestined and foreordained to Eternal Life before the foundation of the world. So something else, a more grander plan must have been the cause for the creation of Adam and Eve and creating them perfect but not powerful enough to overcome the lies of Satan so that the trap was set. And as Martin Luther wrote during his brief stay among men and the creatures of the world, a world full of spirits, when Christ came to the cross as predetermined the mouse trap was set and when Christ cried out it is finished and gave up His Eternal Spirit from those three other parts of His perfect being, the trap was sprung on Satan, snapped shut and Satan was now caught in his own tangled web of deceit which he has tried mercilessly to get himself untangled from to no avail!
So, as I said we are four part beings.
ReplyDeleteTo digress some away from this line of reasoning but not to far I will say I am partially Native American Indian from a tribe of Northern California Indians. My father was a Pomo from the Hopland Band and my mother was a mix of Irish and Swedish so that makes me more than a quarter but not quite a half Native American Pomo Indian. We are very well known for our spiritual nature. And not of the Holy Spirit's brew!
The Apostle Paul wrote this: 1Co 10:18 Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?
1Co 10:19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
1Co 10:20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.
1Co 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
1Co 10:22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Well not until the Spirit of Grace and Truth opened my heart and ears to the Gospel did I know I was a partaker of demons as the Apostle wrote some are partakers of so many years ago.
Going back even farther we read this that Moses wrote:
Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you.
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Deu 32:9 But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
And further down in this chapter, this:
ReplyDeleteDeu 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked; you grew fat, stout, and sleek; then he forsook God who made him and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:16 They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.
Deu 32:18 You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth.
Deu 32:19 "The LORD saw it and spurned them, because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
Deu 32:20 And he said, 'I will hide my face from them; I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness.
So even farther down in the chapter we read this about "nursing" babies lest you think they are just innocent little tikes:
Deu 32:25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.
Deu 32:26 I would have said, "I will cut them to pieces; I will wipe them from human memory,"
Then as we go farther down in the chapter stronger words are used:
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock; our enemies are by themselves.
Deu 32:32 For their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of poison; their clusters are bitter;
Deu 32:33 their wine is the poison of serpents and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu 32:34 "'Is not this laid up in store with me, sealed up in my treasuries?
Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'
Deu 32:36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.
Deu 32:37 Then he will say, 'Where are their gods, the rock in which they took refuge,
Deu 32:38 who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise up and help you; let them be your protection!
Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever,
Deu 32:41 if I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and will repay those who hate me.
Deu 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh-- with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.'
Now, let's look more closely at those three other parts seeing hopefully I have shown you with the Word of God only that there are people of the world and God judges them including their nursing babies? And He avenges His People known before the foundation of the world just as the Scriptures teach?
ReplyDeleteFirst the "flesh".
Jesus said this in John Chapter 17:
Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,
Joh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
See the word flesh?
That word is sarx in the Greek. And everyone born of woman, after Eve the mother of all living, is born with flesh. Some don't look to swell at birth born without arms or legs! But every child that comes through the birth channel of a woman is born with flesh.
The flesh is the outer most container you might say. Inside this container is the body or soma. Inside the body is where the soul or "living being" dwells. And you might now figure out inside this living being or soul/psuche is the "spirit"/pneuma.
The Apostle Paul wrote about all four of these parts when writing about sowing our human bodies likening that sowing as "seed" so that when we are made alive at the final resurrection we are raised a spiritual body. In these next verses you will see the words "flesh/sarx and body/soma bodies/somas", living beings/souls/psuche and spiritual beings/pneuma:
1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
So, I hope it is clear that I have established that Adam and Eve, without belly buttons were four part beings, fully functioning spirits, souls, bodies and flesh.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek word for spirit is pneuma.
The Greek word for soul is psuche.
The Greek word for body is soma.
The Greek word of flesh is sarx.
All throughout the Septuagint you see each of these four Greek Words.
And throughout the New Testament you see them too.
I will close of for the evening as I am weary from a long day and will start up again, Lord willing, tomorrow morning?
Until then I hope you are able to take some time with your Lexicons to see what I have laid out is indeed correct about our being four parts, until born again we are dead spirits unless as with my Tribe, we were opened to the spirits of the world which there are many and then we are living beings, or souls inside bodies inside an outermost container, the flesh or man of dust as Paul says there in 1 Corinthians 15 1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Well I'm back early morning. Besides a time of prayer with the Living God my son is in the Army in Afghanistan so I get up early so we can chat on facebook. He's going through some serious marriage problems now so keep him in your prayers if you are so led of the Lord on my behalf and his and his wife?
ReplyDeleteNow,
starting up again about the premise that the Scripture makes a point that "all living" come out of Eve and God said this "before" that event in Genesis 3: Here is what is recorded by Moses about the creature God made: Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
What is important to understand is what "dies" and "died" after partaking of the forbidden fruit?
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die.
The actual sequence of words goes like this:
Gen 2:17 but fromG575 G1161 theG3588 treeG3586 of theG3588 knowingG1097 goodG2570 andG2532 evil,G4190 you shall notG3756 eatG2068 fromG575 it;G1473 but in whateverG3588 G1161 G302 dayG2250 you should eatG2068 fromG575 it,G1473 to deathG2288 you shall die.G599
The translators from Greek into English rounded off the corners of phrase so there would be an English language essence to the sentence.
In the verse in the Septuagint the word "die" is this Greek Word:
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
As the Greek indicates once Adam ate of the fruit he too began to die off. Each one of us the moment of conception have this same phenomenon, dying off.
Here's the ESV of that verse Genesis 2:7:
ReplyDeleteGen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Here's the Hebrew construction of the verse:
Gen 2:17 But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191
Here's the word die in Hebrew:
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Now to comprehend the essence of original sin you need to understand what is being revealed.
First off at this time the "spirit" part of man was or is described as God made man a "living creature:
Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
I forgot to put up the Hebrew construction for that verse.
Here it is:
Gen 2:7 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315
God created man from the dust of the earth. He then created from a rib of that man a woman so she came out of him. Every human can trace their origin from her, Eve, the mother of all living.
What is the source of their life seeing they are not as God, self existent creatures. There are only three "self existent" Beings and they are not "creatures".
What this Genesis story unfolds for us is the relationship between God, self existent Beings, and initially Adam and Eve. The foods that sustained their bodies/somas and flesh/sarx came from creation. But their soul/psuche was nourished by the fruit of the Tree of Life.
Once they partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they breached the relationship with God and began that dying process everyone of us begins at conception.
God separated them, now fallen dark creatures from that Tree of Life's fruit that nourished them in the garden. At the end of chapter three of Genesis we see that God stationed the Angel so that now that both Adam and Eve have attained to the knowledge of good and evil and are like God in that sense of knowing, they can no longer have access to that fruit and live forever with that knowledge.
The fruit of the original sin is DEATH.
ReplyDeleteThis in no way says people are born "wicked" and evil beasts against God.
That is not the product of original sin, DEATH is and the product, or fruit of that one breach is a fruit we all eat, going the way of all flesh, dying off.
Our actions whether good or evil have no effect on death or our dying off.
I have already established with my presentation that there were many who lived perfect sinless lives according to the Law of Righteousness and every single one of them is dead humanly speaking! All have died a natural death except the two, Enoch and Elijah.
So original sin is reflected in the fact that we die off after we are born. Some die off sooner than others. Some live longer and more healthy productive lives in this present world.
The only way for a person to be rejoined to that perfect relationship which was lost in the garden is through Christ. Now we have the entire Old Testament that points to those Elect of times past and before the Resurrection of Christ that had access to this life giving Spirit. The only way anyone from the Old or New Testament or even today can have access to that fruit of the Tree of Life, the Life giving Spirit is by "Faith". It is this reality that is what overcomes the world, that Faith once delivered to the Saints and this Faith will be and is continually being delivered to God's People in our day through the Gospel.
For me I heard and rejected the Gospel as it was witnessed to me. It took a major crisis in my life kind of like what my son is going through right now before God opened my ears and made me come alive with Christ as I "read" the Scriptures. The preached Word that I was continually hearing as people witnessed to me was like the jack hammer pounding away and softening up my abilities to hear "spiritually" the Word of God. But salvation or enlightenment or that awakening happened as I read these Words from Matthews Gospel:
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
I was all alone, just the Bible, me and the Holy Presence of God, the Lord Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit and when I read those words I came alive by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. I instantly knew I was a Child of God that I was lost and at that moment found!
Now after so many years of study digging into the Word of God reading it in multitude translations, looking at the Hebrew and Greek Words I have a fuller understanding of what it means that I too am a sad recipient of original sin, the dying process, which every human born of a woman will experience.
Finally I want to end this for now with a look at a word used only twice that reveals what spiritually happens to a person who is saved.
The Greek word that is used to describe what happens to a person who is saved by the Will of God, being born again is:
ReplyDeleteσυζωοποιέω
suzōopoieō
sood-zo-op-oy-eh'-o
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.
You find this word in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 and no where else in the New Testament.
There is a similar word that is closely related to it which is:
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
This word is used twelve times in the New Testament.
What is the difference in the two words?
Well suzoopoieo means to "conjoin" or rejoin to something. In this case, what Adam's sin did was disconnect himself and his posterity from that life giving Fruit of the Spirit, Christ. What Faith does is join us back to that life giving Spirit, Christ so that we become Fruit bearing production houses. We are imputed with His Righteousness. The Holy Spirit now dwells in us producing His Fruit, Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness and Temperance. It is no longer I who live but it is Christ in me, this life giving Spirit that now nourishes my soul! Now I am as Adam and Eve were before partaking of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil a "Living Creature" conjoined to Christ by the power of God through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit!
Here is that verse, one of twelve that says it all from where I sit about being joined to Christ:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Well, enough said and written for now. Now I await your responses to what I have laid out that hopefully gives a perspective on original sin and what the fruit is that we all are doomed to partake of no matter if we are "Born Again":
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.